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This week, we bring you a convo with Michael P. Jeffries, author of Paint the White House Black: Barack Obama and the Meaning of Race in America, a fascinating examination of how we think about race in a supposedly “post-racial” America.

Jeffries is also a huge hip-hop head, and has written about rap music and culture for The Guardian, The Atlantic, and more. We talk to him about Tupac and “thuggin’,” Rick Ross’ controversial “U.O.E.N.O.” lyrics, the changing meaning of being multi-racial, and lots more.

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